Hi Brent,
You wrote, "you might not wanna read what i say b/c i am mid-acts,"
It would be a very sad day indeed if one didn't read an opinion just because it came from one with whom we don't agree.
But here is something that I have a "thing" about. If person A expresses a belief, and person B does not agree, if person B does not indicate WHAT IT IS that is incorrect about person A's belief but simply states his view, what does that say? It says that person B is saying, in effect, that person A's view is incorrect ONLY BECAUSE it is different than his.
My point is that my message proved from Scripture that even in the present dispensation works are important in salvation. That makes the place of works in God's plan of salvation just as important in the present dispensation as in the last. In other words, it is a UNIVERSAL TRUTH. But you have not even commented on that, let alone shown why you believe it to be incorrect.
So let me ask you this very specific question: If even in the present dispensation one must "work out your own salvation" and yet we know for sure that we are saved by grace, doesn't that tell you that works is an integral part of salvation in this dispesnation too. Whether works prove one's salvation is another question and I will address that separately.
To answer your question, no, I cannot give you a verse where the word "prove" is used to teach that works prove our faith. But James does tell us that "faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone" (James 2:17). Consider also James 2:22, "seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith MADE PERFECT". What does it mean that works makes faith "perfect"? The Greek word translated "perfect" means, "to make a full end, consummate". Let's add one more verse to this. We read in James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also".
What does all this tell us? It tells us that faith is incomplete unless it is accompanied by works. It tells us that faith is dead, i.e. doesn't exist unless it is accompanied by works. So OK, if it bothers you that the word "prove" is not used, I am more than happy to use the phrase "faith is dead, incomplete without works". In other words, faith doesn't count for anything unless it is accompanied by works.
As for Luke 1:6 I'm afraid you misudnderstand the Greek word translated "righteous" in the KJV and "upright" in the version you quoted. The Greek word does not tell us that they were saved, it tells us that they had done all things correctly. If this definition causes you problems I will be happy to address it in another message, but I don't want to make this one too long.
The fact that our Lord did not mention the word "grace" should not, in my opinion, be the standard by which we draw conclusions as to God's plan of salvation. If it were that simple, all we would have to do is count the occurrences of a certain word and draw our conclusions from that. Surely that is not what you are suggesting.
You wrote, "Now, don't get me wrong, everyone still needed some grace....". Would you please explain that statement. If salvation was by works, where did grace come in?
In point of fact works is CONTRASTED with grace in Rom. 4. Rom. 4 tells us that Abraham was justified by faith (vs. 3). Verss 4-5 tells us that there is a CONTRAST between works and faith. You can't have a contrast between two things and still say that both are parts of the same thing. For example, if I said I will give you $50. out of grace you wouldn't expect to have to work for it. Grace and works are diametrically oppossed to each other, but you have them both as part of the salvation. that utterly defies logic.
I hope you will address these comments (as I have yours) rather than ignore them and just post more of your own views.
In Christ,
Joyce
|
